Work Blog - JeffR

455 posts Page 44 of 46
Duion
Posts: 1497
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2015 1:51 am
 
by Duion » Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:20 pm
Not aiming for AAA graphics is totally idiotic, you have to aim high to achieve something high. Why would anyone intentionally try to achieve something of inferior quality?

AAA quality graphics are perfectly possible for small indie teams, they are even possible for one man teams. The question is not about the quality, but quality combined with quantity. I occasionally watch what professional artists produce and they are perfectly able to produce AAA quality art and almost always they did it all alone. The problem is, they usually spend a couple of months full time work for just one scene/level and that without game integration/playtesting/balancing etc.

So as an indie you have to balance out the time you spend on every part so you have to intentionally downscale everything to finish a whole game in time.

And complaining about the tools is also idiotic, yes they are not ideal, but also not crucially broken. For example I use the engine to convert my .dae files into .dts files, this is not a nice workflow, but just a minor inconvenience, if you really have a lot of models in your game you can batch convert/rename and delete the import files.

People who did not go through the whole workflow meaning create an asset, import it, integrate it, test it and make it to a full working game, do not know what matters anyway. Torque3D is not worse to handle than other engines, in fact it is one of the easier ones to start with, you only run into more trouble in the long run, if you try to code something more individual, but most people never get there anyway.
Razer
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:29 am
by Razer » Sat Dec 07, 2019 8:45 pm
Not aiming for AAA graphics is totally idiotic, you have to aim high to achieve something high. Why would anyone intentionally try to achieve something of inferior quality?

AAA quality graphics are perfectly possible for small indie teams, they are even possible for one man teams. The question is not about the quality, but quality combined with quantity. I occasionally watch what professional artists produce and they are perfectly able to produce AAA quality art and almost always they did it all alone. The problem is, they usually spend a couple of months full time work for just one scene/level and that without game integration/playtesting/balancing etc.

So as an indie you have to balance out the time you spend on every part so you have to intentionally downscale everything to finish a whole game in time.
Exactly a tech demo is very different, it's not a full AAA game.
I don't think someone will make an AAA game with T3D, so T3D should instead focus on usablility and not try to have same features as big engines.
For example give global illumination and cinematic post effects shaders for indies instead of automatic terrain and city generators.
And i don't think T3D will aim to provide Skyrim customizable characters tool.

For me indie games are those like My Friend Pedro, My time at Portia, Inside, Stardew Valley, Ocean Horn 2 for example.
Do you have some example of one man game that is an AAA game (a real long game instead of a small tech demo) ? I will play it if there is any :mrgreen:
Duion
Posts: 1497
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2015 1:51 am
 
by Duion » Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:12 pm
I just said that having AAA graphics AND enough quantity of content to make a full length game is not possible for one man.

But a close example is probably BeamNG, it is not made by one man, but by a team of four and comes pretty close graphics wise, minus some of the drawbacks of the Torque3D engine. You may say it is four people, but I think it is two programmers and two artists, where one makes the cars and one the levels, so almost everything you see is probably made by one guy. Well that was the initial team, now they have over 50 people or so, but there are still only 2 environment artists I think. https://wiki.beamng.com/The_Team

Life is Feudal also looks pretty good, you can see that there are professional artists at work and their game world probably took even less work to build, since it is mostly procedural, but you need more programming in order to make it work.

AAA games are often a lot smoke and mirrors, they spend a lot of money on good looking trailers etc, but in the end they downscale the graphics again so it runs well on normal peoples computers. Their teams sometimes have hundreds of people working on the game, but a lot of those people just have bullshit jobs that don't do much useful to improve the quality of the product.
Razer
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:29 am
by Razer » Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:53 pm
Beam NG is a vehicle game it's not AAA like Forza Horizon and their team is lot of programers and many vehicle designers https://wiki.beamng.com/The_Team
Life is Feudal is also very outdated and not an AAA mmo like Black Desert about graphics, characters and animations.
I agree with you about AAA games teams are not comparable to indies, for example God Of War for PS4 had lot of designers, lot of programmers and many tools developers, lot of animators, and many artists to create all the incredible enviroments.

While procedural generation tools (terrain, houses, foliage, cities ) are interesting for indies, perhaps it's something T3D could choose to focus on.
Duion
Posts: 1497
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2015 1:51 am
 
by Duion » Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:19 pm
I don't know how you define AAA games, but I play a lot of games and when I come back out of playing a modern AAA game and go into Torque, I do not notice that much difference in the graphics quality. I also do not play the current AAA titles, since they are too expensive and I also do not run everything on ultra graphics settings that require a GPU that costs 1000 dollars, so I'm the average gamer. Visual quality of games does not go up that much anymore as it did in the past. You can probably take a lot of modern games and compare them to the over a decade old Crysis and it will be hard to decide which looks better.

Also the official definition of AAA is not that it needs to have good quality, it just refers to that they have a very high development and especially marketing budget and therefore have a high financial risk. So AAA is mostly defined through the money involved, so if a game costs in the range of two or three digit number of millions it is called AAA, so anything in the range of 10-200 millions.

When BeamNG changed their engine from CryEngine to Torque3D people still thought it was CryEngine, so the average consumer cannot even distinguish between those engines, so why do you worry about the engine itself?

How can an engine focus on asset generation tools? You guys never seem to run out of stupid ideas. "The Engine" in our case is mostly just JeffR, so don't bother him with useless feature requests and let him work on the important things.
Bloodknight
Posts: 290
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2015 8:58 pm
by Bloodknight » Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:23 pm
[Moderators Note: Namecalling isn't needed]
Bloodknight
Posts: 290
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2015 8:58 pm
by Bloodknight » Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:13 am
fair enough, but we could at least be pragmatic and argue the length of rope :p
JeffR
Steering Committee
Steering Committee
Posts: 945
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2015 9:49 pm
 
by JeffR » Sun Dec 08, 2019 2:57 am
To answer some inquiries/points brought up(and sorry for the delay, was feeling under the weather this week so I didn't check back here much:

@
User avatar
Razer

Az did a pretty solid job of touching on some of your points, but you had some following inquries. For the player physics bit, for example, the main question would be what you feel actually needs improving to the physics model. As-is, the player physics is robust and reliable, so unless there's a main driving reason for an overhaul to it, it is, as Az noted, not a priority. Obviously expanding what it can do is something we're always game for though.
Same for the input manager change request. I do want to have an actual 'keybinds designer/editor' to make it easier to set all that stuff up in the near future, but I'm not aware of any standing issues with the keybind behavior on the backend that'd necessitate a total overhaul/replacement right now.

Regarding the project management and @
User avatar
Bishop
touched on it as well, my last entry specifically touches on the work going into the new Torque Manager.
The initial implementation will be largely utility focused, but even at that level, I want it to be a platform you can manage engine builds, projects, assets and the like, as well as a hub to easily jump to documentation or examples. I did take some notes from Godot's launcher, as well as Unity, UE4 and Cryengine, as well as the original T3D project manager. So I concur that having a manager/launcher is definitely useful, especially for new people just getting on board to try the engine out, which is why that's definitely already a thing being worked on.
I'm looking forward to having the first build of it out in possibly a week, so if you guys give it a whirl and provide feedback on it, that'll definitely help a lot.

Regarding the 'not going for AAA graphics', let me clarify. Graphics are fundamentally an important component of game development, naturally. I want T3D's renderer to be able to put out whatever level of graphics the developer needs to achieve their vision, which is part of why I'm looking forward to down the line when we can get The Forge working for the graphics backend which will open a lot of options.
That said, the practical reality is as a few others in here noted. The vast majority of indie developers(and if we're being honest, a lot of AAA developers) put out assets and art content well below your 'Battlefield X Main character cinematic model' in terms of fidelity and quality. Establishing the most widely used/common fidelity level as the baseline of support lets us better target what people are actually going to need and use, avoiding a lot of wasted manpower and R&D into obscure render features that no one uses.
It means fewer bulletpoints to put on the website, but it also means that what people DO have to work with is going to be solid and get them what they need in the majority of cases.
And especially with 4.0, with PBR and a pretty solid IBL model, we're definitely at the point where you can put some pretty good fidelity art in and get good results out. Mainly it's a matter of getting a sizeable content library PBR-ified for people to test with and screenshots/videos of to actually understand 'oh hey, this actually does look pretty good'.
Bloodknight
Posts: 290
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2015 8:58 pm
by Bloodknight » Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:33 am
Looking forward to breaking the project manager, as somebody who serially making projects for one thing or another!

On the graphics thing, it's been observed that since switching to PBR the sheer number of good quality materials available for free to developers has massively increased, there's a lot of websites out there now with a good quantity of ridiculously good quality PBR materials, and for a few dollars there are even better paid options for PBR materials than there ever was for good quality diff/spec art. The software painters available to indie developers now better than at any time in history, virtually anybody can make the quality of art that goes into so-called 'AAA' games these days.

and for the love of God can we stop using Godot as the gold standard, it may have some good features, but it has even more problems than every other game engine out there unless you are making very specific game types, but good look making a high fidelity 3d game with it if that's what you are working on
marauder2k9
Posts: 396
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 7:36 am
by marauder2k9 » Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:28 pm
absolutely amazing work as always cant wait for the project manager to hit out :D ive got that many folders on my hard drive just different tests of torque its unreal lol having them all contained will make things so much easier!!

Theres only one thing im waiting for and it is physics joints! Its the only feature that every game absolutely needs because almost everything in a game these days requires them. Ragdoll, doors, weapons, vehicles, multi objects, destructible objects, vehicles with distructible sections, wires, cables.. so many different things! I'm just not smart enough to implement it myself, i know someone had joints figured out for physx but torques physics should be able to do it too.

On the subject of character physics, physics joints can help with that too as you would model separate primitives for the ragdoll or hitbox for your character and they will animate with the joints to mimic movements of the characters
455 posts Page 44 of 46

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest