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Re: Epic upping the ante again...

Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 3:38 pm
by Bloodknight
I think some of it is boasting, the whole billion polys being crunched to 20 million is really just a decimation algorithm at this point probably being run on some custom and special processing units, in the long run, it will be interesting to see how this translates to the PC sphere and whether or not we are starting to move into the world of even more GPU threads or processor units for high-specification games. It's certainly interesting to watch, especially given the uptake of photogrammetry within gaming.

8K textures are pure boasting, apart from rare and specialist areas, utterly useless at the moment, water physics on a small sample, and tbh it didn't look awesome, so more word-salad and buzzword hyping here.

Rumour has it that the PS5 specific SSD/Memory interoperability stuff is what makes loading etc less of a problem for this stuff, again, will be interesting to see how this starts to translate to the PC sphere.

It's nice to see the software world driving the hardware world phase again, I think we've been away from this for too long in some ways.

It's easy to miss some of the points of discussion when everyone is engaging in 'game engine jingoism' Duion is correct in the assertion that developer usage of new technology does lag somewhat, we do have several examples of this over the years. He is also correct that in some ways this does raise the bar for artists, sadly at the same time, it lowers the bar knowing that the algorithms can clean up the 'mess' to a degree.

It would be much more interesting to see how this stuff actually works in practice. It's easy to get a good tech demo when you have the game developers the engine developers and the hardware developers all working together on a single project, but this is a million miles away from 99% and probably a few decimals thrown in for good measure of games being developed right now, I mean that specific demon has probably more man-hours in that 3-minute section than most indie games ever get in total.

Re: Epic upping the ante again...

Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 9:11 pm
by Duion
The irony is with polycount and texture resolution, there is a maximum and pushing it beyond that does not have any effect except using more resources, they even say some triangles are just a pixel big, then why have a triangle to begin with? And an 8k texture fills a regular full HD monitor with 1920x1080 32 times with pixels, so you have to stack 32 monitors to display that texture.

Re: Epic upping the ante again...

Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 12:29 am
by marauder2k9
Focusing on the numbers, while it's what they push as "what it can do", is missing the bigger point made, I think. It's not "what the tech can do in a controlled situation". It's more "what the tech is doing, period" and the implications that has for designers and developers working with it.
But the demo is a controlled situation... The thing is that whole scene screams to me that as what Bloodknight had said its just flexing and boasting. And as Duion said textures at 8k textures and certain polygons that are only a pixel size, really isnt useful to an artist or a developer, this tech demo i think was for end users people who are going to be playing games. I have no doubt this is probably running on a PS5 and in real time, but it is a completely controlled scene, it would be interesting to know the techniques that were used to make the rest of the scene, they only talk about the opening scene as being dynamic, but the rest of it im not too sure about.
That's how I look at this tech demo, and tech demos in general. Sure you're not going to start seeing games with billions of tris in a single scene, but the technology is there to make it possible, in the right circumstances. The net result is that games are still going to have the potential to look a lot better than the previoust tech, and at a comparable performance.
this is what is going to really bake your noodle, the ability to run a billion tris has always been there. You ever tried to push torque to its limit? It can render scenes like that and it wont bust the engine it just doesnt have the dynamic model and textures in it yet as far as i know? But it can do it! push a 20 million polygon model into torque and you will see what i mean it will run just as smooth as that does but again it just is not practical for anyone let alone end users. Torque can also take 8k textures, its nothing new.
The real take-away of this video, at least for me, is how it removes several steps from the asset pipeline for artists. Being able to put full detailed models into a scene without having to worry about manually creating LODs, or having to generate normal maps or displacement maps shouldn't be understated. If you've ever gone through the process of baking normal maps, and setting up LODs on even less detailed objects, the process can be pretty tedious and time consuming. So, UE4 providing all that detail and LOD in real time is a big deal.
Again sure if you want to develop games for people with the latest hardware top of the end stuff then sure, but as we all know you will only be getting into what 10% of the market? Maybe even less. Of course you could develop solely for the consoles too but then again they have to have the latest playstation or latest xbox to run this smoothly without LOD's and other methods. Also dynamic LOD's and dynamic tessellation is also old tech, but there is a reason why artists choose to do it manually. More control over the final outcome. I remember a directx 12 demo about dynamic tessellation but artists quickly realized that alot of the polygons being added while useful for displacement maps they weren't really adding any extra detail that couldn't be done with LODs that are controllable.

Re: Epic upping the ante again...

Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 11:52 am
by Duion
Does someone have access to good photoscanned 3D models, so he can place them into our engine? Jeff posted a shot in his work blog and it looks quite nice already: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=159&start=450#p12831
Only a direct comparison of the same scene can really show a game engines capabilities. Such direct comparisons already exist for the major engines and Unreal always seemed to me like one of the less realistic looking engines, I wonder how Torque would compare to that.

Re: Epic upping the ante again...

Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 9:11 pm
by marauder2k9
engine demos are sometimes freely available to test and play around with, the assets might be able to be converted over to torque, but if its all dynamically created i don't know even where to begin to take it into torque. And from their website unreal 5 wont be out until 2021, waiting that long sounds boring lol I wonder if we could work together to design a similar tech demo. It will take time but imagine an open source engine being able to re-create the unreal demo before it is released to the public. Could get a lot of attention but again it would have to look the part. With the work JeffR and the steering committee is doing it is very possible to make it look as realistic if not more realistic but it all falls on the artwork created for it. Does anyone here have Zbrush? Torque4.0 pre release has directx12 if im not mistaken? Because torque is open source we could create a demo similar for non profit educational means without causing any problems. And release it for people to play around with.

Re: Epic upping the ante again...

Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 10:05 pm
by Duion
@
User avatar
marauder2k9

You are dreaming, we did not manage to put out any demo material as a community for promotion so far, how do you think we should be able to do it now? We did not even manage to create a steering committee, so we not only have nobody doing anything, we do not even have people who could coordinate doing something to begin with.

Re: Epic upping the ante again...

Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 11:15 pm
by marauder2k9
@ marauder2k9
You are dreaming, we did not manage to put out any demo material as a community for promotion so far, how do you think we should be able to do it now? We did not even manage to create a steering committee, so we not only have nobody doing anything, we do not even have people who could coordinate doing something to begin with.
nobody has made a demo because there is nothing to make a demo of. there hasnt been any major updates to the engine since 3.1 with 4.0 being the next major update there would be demos made for that to be sure. But 4.0 isnt released yet and is a bit unstable at times so no one wants to make a demo for it yet apart from maybe the steering committee, but they are making simple things to show off certain features no fully fledged demo yet but there will be. I'm merely suggesting ideas that i wouldn't mind helping on but i wont be able to do it alone. A demo similar to that wouldnt be too hard or take too long to make when you think about it. Ive often been thinking a viking style demo would be amazing for torque white cliffs grassy fields a temple in the mountain etc

Re: Epic upping the ante again...

Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 11:26 pm
by Duion
Did you not read? I said we do not have a steering committee doing things, which is also the reason why we did not have any releases for 2 years, while originally we had 4 releases per year. And of course there is things to show off, there are constantly new features being implemented, why not show them off?

Re: Epic upping the ante again...

Posted: Fri May 22, 2020 5:58 pm
by Caleb
Let's steer back on topic shall we. . .

Tech demos such as these are in essence a flex and often are never intended to suggest how things should be done. developing a framework that can handle millions of polygons and massive textures with dynamic scaling without a noticeable performance hit is impressive. Full stop. The best way to showcase it is to push it millions of polygons and massive textures. To me, the point of them demo seemed to be letting the engine do more and more of the heavy lifting. Dynamic global illumination, cave echos, flocking "boids," IK animations; it's largely taken off the plate of the artists and level designers and put onto the shoulders of the engine. Of course it won't be perfect and changing the industry standards will take time (if it ever happens at all).

@
User avatar
Duion
is probably right about a Torque showcase. There are things that Torque can do well and should show those things off. Being "small" or unique is immaterial. Having a good pool of art that is at least visually comparable to other engines is important, but I don't know if trying to prove to be Unreal's contemporary is a good idea.

Re: Epic upping the ante again...

Posted: Sat May 23, 2020 2:20 am
by marauder2k9
Let's steer back on topic shall we. . .

Tech demos such as these are in essence a flex and often are never intended to suggest how things should be done. developing a framework that can handle millions of polygons and massive textures with dynamic scaling without a noticeable performance hit is impressive. Full stop. The best way to showcase it is to push it millions of polygons and massive textures. To me, the point of them demo seemed to be letting the engine do more and more of the heavy lifting. Dynamic global illumination, cave echos, flocking "boids," IK animations; it's largely taken off the plate of the artists and level designers and put onto the shoulders of the engine. Of course it won't be perfect and changing the industry standards will take time (if it ever happens at all).

@ Duion is probably right about a Torque showcase. There are things that Torque can do well and should show those things off. Being "small" or unique is immaterial. Having a good pool of art that is at least visually comparable to other engines is important, but I don't know if trying to prove to be Unreal's contemporary is a good idea.
You are right, but i will say my idea was not to prove to be unreals contemporary more along the lines of just showing that it can be done in torque