Why don't we get anything done?

Friendly conversations, and everything that doesn't fit into the other forums.
45 posts Page 3 of 5
Happenstance
Posts: 101
Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2015 9:08 pm
by Happenstance » Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:47 pm
see this, this is wrong, plain wrong and while I could rant about specific use cases I won't because hypotheticals are hypotheticals, if you go to Github the default download is the development branch, not the master branch so if your entire argument is based in this premise your entire house is built on rocky foundations.

and to yet again point out that your only solution to the 'mismanagement' of torque is to copy a working practice that torque was using before godot was even a thing seems well, not a solution.

And yes my posts are a little ranty 1) because duion is an asshat who hates my guts and is always wrong, and the sentiment is mutually reciprocal, except for the wrong bit, he owns that domain... and because I think you are arguing from a position of ignorance and I am trying to explain things to you and well, offence is not intended even if the tone is not showing that., your partner in crime in this thread... that is duion, don't be like duion...
I'm not sure what history you have with Duion but none of it involves me. Agreeing with his point that development has slowed and there needs to be a discussion about why and how to move forward doesn't mean we're tag teaming the forum as best buds. It makes it difficult to talk through things calmly if you're looking at every post as an opportunity to stick it to Duion, especially when I'm just discussing facts: there have been less releases in the last 2 years than at any point in the engine's history, the last official release is years behind in terms of bug fixes and features compared to the development branch, progress toward 4.0 has slowed as the community has shrunk & the feature set exploded, development is fragmented across several repos.

my point about the harassing etc is that in any other field of endeavour there are incentives, asshole bosses, you name it, motivating or demotivating, the only factors for motivation or demotivation for volunteers are people praising or people shitting on their work, I'm pretty sure everyone here knows all there is to know about software engineering best practices, but you know what makes projects even later? developers doing paperwork, especially when that developer gets maybe 2 hours per night and a few more hours at weekends ignoring their wives and drinking buddies.

Go through your list of complaints and strip out everything that can be fixed with more manpower, see what's left.
More manpower would be great but we don't have that, which is why I'm concerned about 4.0's progress/the community's technical ability to get it done and the new user experience - how they get the engine, how they compile & modify it, how they report bugs, track fixes, and so on. Some of those things are pain points right now and don't need to be.

now for some ad hominem, which I think you've earned, you know there's a discord channel you have 0 fucking excuses about not knowing what's going on and who is doing it, all you have to do is ask, but no, you come here and provide tbh what sounds like a trolling attack at points.

Jeff would probably love some assistance with PBR Az would probably love some assistance with probes, but nobody asks, and nobody offers, everybody just demands, and complains, nobody wants to touch the engine till its all shiny and fully featured, and nobody wants to help.
I might know there's a Discord but will a new user? Is it linked on the main Torque3D github page? What about on the main torque3d.org page? Maybe it's under the 'Contribute' or 'Community' menus? Nope, there's just a link tucked away on the forums which means someone looking at the engine for the first time has to hunt for what's apparently become the hub of the community and once they do finally connect they'll be greeted with a lobby of 15-20 people. Let's hope they ask the right questions, like whose repo they need to look at to find 4.0.
Happenstance
Posts: 101
Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2015 9:08 pm
by Happenstance » Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:14 pm
Appreciate the goal-driven response. This thread has been worthwhile if even some of these ideas get implemented, although it's unfortunate that so many of them require admin-level privileges to do - feels like stacking more work on a few people's already full plate.

I think posting a link to the "big 3" (or 4?) forks that are out there right now would be good step forward and if we could get a collective effort to note branches of interest that'd be great as well. There's probably some work to do on the Contribute section of the site & wiki that would help direct people as well. I'll look into making some updates to the wiki and posting something here..
All good points as well. Splitting off from GG has it's share of pros & cons, definitely worth discussing more.
Duion
Posts: 1475
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2015 1:51 am
 
by Duion » Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:33 pm
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Happenstance

I just use the forum ignore function on Bloodknight, he is just trying to sabotage me since forever, I have never seen him create anything, so why even read what he writes when he has no proof of his expertise anywhere.

Like me or not, the facts are that no releases in over 2 years and that the previous model with the steering committee worked relatively well and the model now does not.

When the "community" took over the engine it went downward, I was at the steering committee before that, but after I was kicked out and they put a bunch of people into the committee that I have never heard of before and that never showed any activity later. So someone with zero activity is somehow more qualified for that position than me, the most active member of the community. I don't really know what to t hink, is it just pure incompetence or intentional sabotage? It is not that hard to make a few mouse clicks and kick out the nonexistent members and ask who wants to do the job, incompetent or not, existing people are better than nonexisting ones.
Bloodknight
Posts: 288
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2015 8:58 pm
by Bloodknight » Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:21 am
I think posting a link to the "big 3" (or 4?) forks that are out there right now would be good step forward and if we could get a collective effort to note branches of interest that'd be great as well.
and therein lies the problem, like it or not, you are advocating for 2 different sets of people, and one size does NOT fit all, if you push experimental you get people running around telling everyone the game engine is broken and shit (we have real examples in the past of this happening to torque) or you protect them from the cluster fucks and then they complain that nothing ever gets done.

I'll throw you another example, the announcement of 4.0 imo has all but destroyed this community, the users that used to be part of the community left and only come back to ask 'are we there yet' and then complain because its not done, its like they want the next big feature and they don't really care much for anything else. That imo was a watershed moment that showed me the shallow end of the game dev community that I've been part of for decades
There's probably some work to do on the Contribute section of the site & wiki that would help direct people as well. I'll look into making some updates to the wiki and posting something here..
this is just proof of the PR/marketing driven world we live in, personally, I think its a sad indictment of the modern world that optics are more important than substance.

Also, as a side note, not once have you made it clear which one of these dev types you are, everything you have done so far is 'white knighting' for new users and 'white knighting' for experienced devs. (and nobody in between it seems :p ) without actually stating a personal preference, and then you take my responses personally, so yeah, i'm confused as heck
Azaezel
Posts: 484
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2015 9:50 pm
 
by Azaezel » Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:23 am
I'm going to be about as civil as I can after watching this devolve into a blatant revisionist history session. 4.0 was deliberately designated the breaking backwards compatibility branch up front. Of course it's going to take longer. Now if folks would like to assist in completing the last month or twos worth of effort instead of whining about the last year put in, they are, as always free to do more than spout bullshit lies about who's actually contributed to this community beyond forum trolling and having to have bug reports actively dragged out of them in real-time. (and for folks that are new, yes, that would mean @
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Duion
). You do make good points, @
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Happenstance
, and hopefully those can be somewhat addressed. In future, hopefully we can be dealing with less focus-requiring things so that this kind of talk can happen both more frequently, and less often instigated by someone that can only get erect if they're pissing someone off.
Bloodknight
Posts: 288
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2015 8:58 pm
by Bloodknight » Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:34 am
I think there are a couple of threads running through this particular discussion.

happen has concerns about optics, which probably should be addressed, but my personal belief is that these are less important, given that so few newcomers even exist, and those that do generally auto-shit on torque because it's not unity when what they really want is free unity pro with source code.

and duion.. who doesn't believe in natural laws, or physics and has not a single fucking clue about manpower requirements and seems to think that the SC used magic to make code appear, everything discussed here is as a direct result of there being just 3 main devs who do 99.99% of the work (unpaid, part-time, and mostly unthanked) with others chipping in here and there with bug fixes and mini features. Seems to also be completely unaware that when you have half as my workers you get half as much work done and expects 10 people can do the same work as 100


I also disagree generally about providing fucked up branches, there are enough issues without people constantly bitching that fucked up branches are fucked up, this is unnecessary agro, why? because the majority of users don't remotely understand alpha or beta or testing, the majority of people getting into game dev now aren't even devs. At best they are modders and game engine people are trying hard to make all their engines into modder friendly tools to cater to that crowd, and most of them fail spectacularly, the only real successes are unity and unreal, people keep calling out the Godot name or urho, and apart from a couple of features imo both of these are inferior to torque I also generally get irked when people keep bringing edge cases into arguments and portraying them as mainstream... stop that!
Duion
Posts: 1475
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2015 1:51 am
 
by Duion » Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:30 am
@ Azaezel
I'm not criticizing that you people are not contributing enough, just mentioning that for example we have no steering committee anymore for maybe 4 years in some cases, at least that is what the forum says those people were last active.

Look here: memberlist.php?mode=team
The only active person from the admin team is Lukas and the only active person from the committee is Jeff, the others you almost never see.
What is so hard on doing a few mouse clicks, kicking them out and ask if someone wants to do the job? I wanted to apply, but I'm not allowed, I was not even allowed to have a shitty moderator role to delete the rampant spam that accumulated already over months and nobody cared.

Why don't you just let other people do something? Then we do not have to make a big drama about everything every time. It is not very motivating to get ignored all the time.
marauder2k9
Posts: 371
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 7:36 am
by marauder2k9 » Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:29 pm
Speaking from my own experience jeff and the others let people work on whatever they want to, perfect example my openal reverb and effects implementation. When i went onto discord they were helpful they discussed with me over different features that might be able to be done with this simple implementation being in place first and that was on top of all the pbr and basegame template stuff they were and are still working on atm. Anytime ive had a question it has been answered quickly.
Duion
Posts: 1475
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2015 1:51 am
 
by Duion » Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:21 pm
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marauder2k9

Sure you can work on what you want, that is not what I was speaking about. Did you think I was thinking about that they were physically stopping you from it? That is ridiculous and you know that, of course you want work on what you want, the question is more, if they let you decide anything and they don't. Btw there is no "they" anyway as it was planned as to have a committee, since it does not exist anymore.

You can even make your own fork and work on that how you like, but I try to prevent that, since it just adds extra work for you and your changes will not be accepted into the main repo. For example there is more than one time where I caught people trying to delete features from the engine I use and I don't want to constantly go around and bring those features back in and maintain them myself every time.

Like most times I'm against the decissions made or want to suggest something else than the plan, the answer I get is just something like "Screw you". Sure in their view it is no problem to just delete things they think they do not need or break backwards compatibility where they want, since they don't have a game out that will be broken through it, but people who do are screwed. It is not that big of a deal in most cases since you can patch it back, but it gets really annoying over time.
Bloodknight
Posts: 288
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2015 8:58 pm
by Bloodknight » Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:43 pm
the question is more, if they let you decide anything and they don't
and a Steering committee making the choices has 0 impacts on this statement.
For example there is more than one time where I caught people trying to delete features from the engine I use and I don't want to constantly go around and bring those features back in and maintain them myself every time.
* citation needed also, list needed
Like most times I'm against the decissions made
Duion is against everything that does not agree with his political and ideological beliefs. check the thread about abandoning discord for a simple example, but note that he doesn't list any decisions just like above
or want to suggest something else than the plan,
sadly the internet is awash with free speech, making idiotic suggestions is commonplace, which plans specifically do you specifically wasn't to promote that hasn't already been considered for adding to the engine? likely none, just arguing for arguing sake
Sure in their view it is no problem to just delete things they think they do not need or break backwards compatibility where they want,
backwards compatibility hasn't been broken yet, and at some point, if there's to be any progression it has to be done, just think how shit all software would be if this notion was never entertained.
since they don't have a game out that will be broken through it, but people who do are screwed
if you have a working game then you shouldn't need to upgrade the engine every time, this is plain insanity, what this shows to the world however is that really you don't actually have a game, you have nothing but a reskinned free torque template with a few script mods that you want to upgrade for free on the backs of all the people who put the hard work into the engine, this is like asset flipping but with crappy homemade 'nailed it' art, and pretty much everybody can see that you are literally trying to stop progress on the engine because then it will be too hard for you port your 'game'.

I'm pretty much for jeff shutting this shitshow down now, you've revealed your true self in this last post, and why pretty much nobody in the community apart from mack even deals with you anymore, and I'm pretty sure that's the internet equivalent of a pity fuck.
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