Why don't we get anything done?

Friendly conversations, and everything that doesn't fit into the other forums.
45 posts Page 4 of 5
Phantom_Limbs
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:14 am
by Phantom_Limbs » Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:55 am
Hi, long time lurker here. I registered to weigh in here because frankly seeing the corrosive impact Duion has had on these forums over the last few years leaves me incredibly sad and disheartened.

It's honestly unbelievable how toxic and entitled you behave towards the few devs who are currently working on the engine. In their spare time. For free. The idea that the devs should adhere to your particular vision of what Torque should be in the name of a 'democratic' approach is mind-bogglingly selfish; and the fact you choose straight-up belligerence when you don't get your way, rather than either choosing to contribute or just forking the engine for your own needs doesn't just reflect poorly on yourself - you're dragging the whole public perception of Torque down. I can't fathom the amount of people who must browse the forums, see you throwing a multi-year pissfit, and decide to pass on being a part of the community.

Torque is a brilliant and hugely underrated engine, and the fact you expend so much energy bashing the approach of its developers helps nobody. If you actually cared about the engine's development instead of insisting the entire community up sticks from Discord because Daddy Stallman doesn't like it, you would see that there's back-and-forth work on hammering out 4.0 literally every night.

In short, your behaviour is appalling and I'm really surprised the mods haven't chosen just to ban you and move on.
suncaller
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:03 am
by suncaller » Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:59 am
I'm largely active in the Discord server, but I felt I was in a position to address some of the contents of this thread from a relevant perspective. Take it for what you will.

The ideas about clarifying future plans, current activity, and existing features is something I've mentioned on a few occasions, and I've suggested ideas which Jeff has agreed with me on, but that have yet to be implemented. The first time I brought it up was nearly a year ago, and it was already something that had been discussed before that, I'm sure. You might think I'd be upset about this, and perhaps I will surprise you by saying I'm not, because I have too many other things going on to do it myself at the moment, and would much prefer Jeff spends his time doing all of the other work that he's pushing out at unbelievable speed. The discussion we had on the topic has been saved, and I can assure you I will bring it back up again. As I'm incapable at present to replace Jeff at the tasks before him, I must necessarily take up other tasks that I am more suited to until such a time that I can usurp the throne.

For the accusations about the course of development and the suitability of the leadership, I just want to say that not only has the community taken on my input in meaningful ways, and in certain cases decided on a course partly based on that input, numerous of the more experienced developers -- particularly Jeff, Azaezel, and Tim, though there are others -- have taken humbling amounts of time to explain or even re-explain nuanced topics to me, helped me troubleshoot complex problems, and in some cases trivial ones. Whenever I present a well-reasoned or researched notion, I will find they are receptive to my ideas, though often I am forced to admit they've reasoned over those same topics more solidly, or researched them more extensively, and I must either yield or go back and discover more evidence to back up my claims. I'm glad that's the case, because otherwise this wouldn't be a community worth being a part of. I've always been of the opinion that an assertion cannot be made in good company without sound and valid logic to support it, and lacking that, the willingness to accept correction.

Obviously, you will find there is more activity on a daily basis if you join the community in our current medium of choice (Discord), but if for whatever reason you're averse to that idea, even on these forums, it would be great to see you lay out what your plans are in detail so we can all follow along. I haven't yet come across any threads where you have presented a problem, its solution, and volunteered the time to see that solution through to completion, but I for one am eagerly anticipating seeing that thread pop up.
Duion
Posts: 1377
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2015 1:51 am
 
by Duion » Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:59 am
Obviously, you will find there is more activity on a daily basis if you join the community in our current medium of choice (Discord), but if for whatever reason you're averse to that idea, even on these forums, it would be great to see you lay out what your plans are in detail so we can all follow along. I haven't yet come across any threads where you have presented a problem, its solution, and volunteered the time to see that solution through to completion, but I for one am eagerly anticipating seeing that thread pop up.
I explained my ideas and plans for years now over and over again, maybe 5 years or so and all I get is answers like "Screw you", "Fuck you", "You are a troll", "You are toxic" etc sure I'm toxic when I get ignored and insulted all the time, even though I dedicated thousands of hours on creating content I gave away totally for free.

I already gave enough examples like the nonexistent steering committee that nobody notices since many years, but I can give you another one that shows what attitude I have the most problems with.

For example since almost forever like 5+ years ago I started to propose that we need to do advertising like at least get control over eventual social media accounts and at least update them that the engine has been open sourced and is different now etc. So for example I found the engine on https://www.moddb.com/engines/torque-3d and found that it was never updated and still showed the commercial engine from 10 years ago, so I proposed for years to take control of that page and update it. I spoke about it on the meetings of the steering committee, on the forum, in chats etc and people said they would solve it, but nobody ever did anything. So I created a new page on my own, it was deleted by moderators of that page, because they said it already exists, then I told them that the person controlling it is gone and so after long discussion I managed to convince the admins to give me control over that accounts, so finally I thought we can update it and then I gave it over to JeffR, because he was in charge and I did not want to be egoistic. Well he took it over and of course did nothing to change it and when I asked why I just got a "Screw you" as an answer. All I wanted is to update the page with a new description that it is open source now, some screenshots etc would take like an hour of work or so, but nobody ever cared to do it and as I offered to do it I got a "Screw you" as a reply again.

There are so many little changes that would make a great improvement compared to the little amount of work needed to do them, but people actively refuse to do anything, often only because I proposed it.

Then I get blamed for putting people of because of being "toxic" which is subjective anyway, but having no updates or activity in some areas over many years is somehow not putting people off, this is all hypocritical.

I don't demand people to work harder on the engine, it is just those many little common sense decissions and actions that are never done for whatever reason that anger me and what angers me even more is, when I do them on my own, but are then thrown away or ignored by others and I get insulted again for being so egoistic even though I give everything away I do for free.
Code_Man
Posts: 66
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:12 pm
by Code_Man » Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:16 am
This sure seemed to have turned a duion bashing fest it seems to me.
Im not gonna try to get between sides but ill drop my feedback in.

So far my experience with duion is he is usually the first to give advice and actually delivers with ubergame, speed might be arguable but the quality is good.

I dont see the big issue with trying a steering comitee with duion in it, whats the worst that could happen, probably nothing would happen and things go on as they do.
Its not like hes gonna delete t3d or open a gateway to hell.

May i also suggest we save this reorganization for after 4.0 so jeff can focus on finishing business.
Maybe after some time and reconsideration we can discuss this in a more productive manner.
Azaezel
Posts: 463
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2015 9:50 pm
 
by Azaezel » Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:45 pm
I dont see the big issue with trying a steering comitee with duion in it, whats the worst that could happen, probably nothing would happen and things go on as they do.
Its not like hes gonna delete t3d or open a gateway to hell.
We did. twice. He actively blocked submissions and pointed folks at his repository instead of submitting things. The exact opposite of contribution to the main engine. (the second time was what turned into ubergame so he's already got his fork to control.) Like I said, would have left folks to rant if he wasn't trying to rewrite history to make himself seem pure and the rest of us like assholes. This latest is clearly just a snitfit to try and take more control.
May i also suggest we save this reorganization for after 4.0 so jeff can focus on finishing business.
Maybe after some time and reconsideration we can discuss this in a more productive manner.
Agreed.
Duion
Posts: 1377
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2015 1:51 am
 
by Duion » Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:12 pm

We did. twice. He actively blocked submissions and pointed folks at his repository instead of submitting things.
You did twice what? I never was in the committee after garagegames fully left the project. I also don't know how I supposedly should have blocked submissions. I was there as an artist and guiding the visual stuff, I was actually the only one contributing anything, but I was blocked of contributing anything through being ignored. When I was in the committee, it was discussed, that art will not be committed to the main repo, since the size would blow up and will reach the maximum repository size quickly.

I'm not criticizing you for not doing enough, but for throwing everything over board that was planned before, like throw away the steering committee, throw away all plans that were made in it before and throw away the release schedule etc.

And to top it off you claim I try to take control, while you actually already have taken all control for yourself.

PS: This is the old Trello board with the original plans for the engine etc: https://trello.com/b/CsoHkTbH/torque-3d ... tributions
suncaller
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:03 am
by suncaller » Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:58 pm
I'm not at all interested in bashing anyone, and in fact I would greatly appreciate if the personal attacks could be reduced to something in the range of non-existent.

User avatar
Duion
, the problem here might partly be a difference in philosophy, and since this is primarily a game and game engine development community, more credence is given to contributions along those lines, and the philosophy of those most capable and prolific in that department is valued above others; whether or not this is right is a different discussion and one I have little interest in going over, as it is moot. Even in a meritocracy, we have to align ourselves to certain principles and goals over others -- otherwise merit cannot be judged, for obvious reasons.

There is also -- and I hope you won't take this the wrong way -- the very real possibility that you are not suited to public relations work, if the way you express yourself throughout this and other threads is any evidence. If that is an interest of yours, it might be useful for you to first cultivate the necessary skills, before attempting to head such an endeavor for the sake of the community. I know very well what it's like to wish to say something and be unable to adequately express myself, and it's something I've worked long and hard to improve on, and the task is still undergoing. Just remember, please, that sometimes, our actions bring more harm than good, even when we have the best of intentions. I'm sure you know the phrase that follows.
Duion
Posts: 1377
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2015 1:51 am
 
by Duion » Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:25 pm
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User avatar
suncaller

Are you joking? Where are your credentials that make you qualified to judge who is capable and who not? I have proven myself over and over again over the years, that I'm qualified and able to get things done, you have nothing to show, so why should I bother to argue with you?
suncaller
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:03 am
by suncaller » Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:03 pm
I think our credentials as far as how adults speak with each other show very clearly even within this thread. For the rest, could you kindly point me in the direction of these credentials of yours that you claim exist? I'm sure you're speaking nothing but the truth with your claims, but I've yet to come across anything to back that bluster up. I'll show you mine if you show me yours.
Duion
Posts: 1377
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2015 1:51 am
 
by Duion » Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:14 pm
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User avatar
suncaller

Why don't you just click the link to my website, there you can find most of the stuff I did, all you need to do is click the link that is right in your face all the time.
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