Is this forum ruled by despotism?

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LukasPJ
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by LukasPJ » Wed May 27, 2020 9:24 pm
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Duion

So in my mind a news blog and update og website is very much contained in the term "Public Relations"

I don't know why we need someone in a steering committee to rate people's art? Could you elaborate on that because I don't quite understand it.

The wiki is inactive yes, but anyone can contribute to it, no reviews or approvals necessary afaik. So I don't think we need a steering committee for something that people don't contribute to. That's just the state of the community.


@
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Happenstance
you raise some valid points, and address some of them yourself.
I agree that more could be done in terms of PR, but we need competent people that want to review, approve and merge these PRs, but it's definitely something that could be looked at.
I wonder how many people that we could gather that would be willing/able to review PRs and issues regularly.

If anyone here is interested in helping with that, I would recommend hitting up @
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JeffR
I'm sure he would welcome it
Duion
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by Duion » Wed May 27, 2020 9:58 pm
I don't care if you create a steering committee or not, fact is nothing gets done, if you would get something done another way, I would admit of being wrong, but this is not the case.

You cannot define everything as public relations, since just having a website is not public relations, since just creating a website without doing public relations will do nothing. Public relations is advertising something, not creating it.

But if you argue like that you could say "Well everything is public relations, since everything you do is just because you want to relate to other people" which is idiotic, it is like you saying "Well there exist no other points you can make, because everything is public relations and we do not need public relations and because everything is public relations you have no other points you can make"

Creating and having something is different to advertising it, first you need to create something, to have something that you can do advertising on.

Yes having an expert in art is important, otherwise everything that is created will look bad, but that is probably also just public relations for you so it does not matter, everything is nothing and nothing exists.
LukasPJ
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by LukasPJ » Wed May 27, 2020 10:08 pm
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Duion
the main thing I'm trying to dig into here is that "nothing gets done" is a very vague opinion. I would much prefer it to be a lot more concrete, otherwise there isn't really anything to act on.

And it might be that having a website isn't necessarily PR, but a landing page and a news blog is fairly deep into PR territory.
However we needn't make a big deal of what the term PR means, it was mostly an acknowledgement of the fact that your main issues doesn't seem to be directly with engine development, and rather with social media, news blogs, websites etc.
Which is a very different skillset/task than what someone such as @
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JeffR
spends most of his time on, and thus we would definitely need different hands to work on that.

I still don't quite understand the need for an expert in art that can review people's art because I don't understand what art it is that expert needs to review. Is it website designs, 3D models in-engine or something else?
Duion
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by Duion » Wed May 27, 2020 11:06 pm
Nothing gets done means concretely: We have no marketing, no updated website, no active social media, no official news, no steering committee.
There is metrics activated on many things on the internet and you can precisely see if there is activity or not and in most categories there is no activity, that is not a vague opinion but a definitive fact.

I don't even have to prove that nothing gets done, if you pretend things get done, it is your duty to prove it. You cannot claim things are getting done by default and only if someone proves they are not getting done, they stop to exist that would be insane.
LukasPJ
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by LukasPJ » Wed May 27, 2020 11:58 pm
I have acknowledged that little happens on social media and the website news etc.
I'm not contesting that.

I would contest that nothing happens at all, and I think getting concrete in what your specific pain is, is important. Otherwise I would have assumed you meant engine-wise.

Let's put all that aside, what do you propose the solution is? What's stopping you from addressing the problem?
Again, this is not a bit. It's a genuine question.
Duion
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by Duion » Thu May 28, 2020 12:11 am
What is stopping me? People because almost every time I say or do something they fight me and if I do it anyway they ignore it away. Like with the new default art assets I made and the Moddb account I recovered to do PR on.

It is easy to see that nothing happens for example out of the steering committee members only 2 were every really active and since 3 years just 1 is active, so for 5 years there is no progress at all, rather there is a regress and there is so little happening that nobody even bothers to spend a minute or two to just delete the inactive nonexistent members out of the steering committee list, that is also an example of intentionally ignoring problems while actually fixing them would require even less energy than ignoring them.
LukasPJ
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by LukasPJ » Thu May 28, 2020 12:23 am
The new default art assets you made, is that a pr? Can't find it with a superficial search.

I'd like to see an example of how you've been wronged, you seem to suggest a maliciousness behind it.

I admit that I have not deleted people from the SC list on the forums, it's a communication problem where I didn't really keep up-to-date on the SC work so I just didn't pick up on it, and it doesn't seem to really matter now.
Assuming that is the list you're referring to, then I can clean up the list tomorrow if that is important to you.
Duion
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by Duion » Thu May 28, 2020 1:00 am
It was decided to not pr new art assets into the repo, because that would blow up the size and it is already very big and since it is version control every binary asset file will blow it up forever. Git is not made for that.
I released the first version on Opengameart, but I'm banned there now, so it is on my website with all my other stuff.
Now I would make new, better ones, but I have nowhere to put them and nobody will use them anyway, so I'm not really motivated to do anything anymore for others.
LukasPJ
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by LukasPJ » Thu May 28, 2020 6:45 am
I'd be interested in seeing the actual discussion where this decision was made, was it a forum post?

Tbh from what you're writing here, it sounds less like you being ignored and more like an active decision not to include it in the main repo.

But, it doesn't have to be in the main repo, you can create cool art and put it in another repo or as you did on your own website. Then, everyone interested can get it freely! That's arguably just as good as having it in the main repo
JeffR
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by JeffR » Thu May 28, 2020 8:39 am
I'm working with Lukas and other site/online presence maintainers to put together a gameplan on how to clean up and consolidate stuff because as people in here(and elsewhere) have noted, there's the issue of stuff not being kept up to date.
I'll be posting a new workblog and the gameplan for stuff going forward to deal with most all of this this weekend.

In the meantime, pertaining to default assets: if they're not included when someone downloads the engine, it's hard to say they are default.
That said, with the new Torque Manager, the idea is an easier to maintain and expand list of community assets that are readily downloadable on demand. Ergo, your assets could be uploaded and integrated into the list, and so when people use the Manager, it'd appear in the list and they could readily download and utilize it in their projects.
This would keep the main repo size down, while making it front and center for those utilizing the engine via the Manager, which should assuage a lot of that concern.
I can touch on that more as well in my next workblog.
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