We need metrics and marketing

Feedback for the forum, wiki, landing page or the Github website
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Duion
Posts: 1370
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2015 1:51 am
 
  by Duion » Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:12 am
Can we have a visitor counter? I mean having a visitor counter is essential to having a website, since otherwise you don't know, if anyone actually visits it. That is like the most basic common sense, but it seems like we do not have it.

Later if you have a visitor counter, you should do marketing to increase visitors, so people interested in the content can find it more easily also the most basic common sense,

So has anyone of the nonexistent admins or steering committee members ever thought about that? If not you should consider doing so.

First I wanted to post this as an answer into the thread "Curious fantasy and hypothesis", but I think this is an issue of itself and the bigger issue. I mean debating about details is meaningless, if we do not even have metrics to see, if what we do has any effect. When we have metrics, I think doing marketing or SEO would help the engine more than anything else, since more users contribute more.
Bloodknight
Posts: 226
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2015 8:58 pm
by Bloodknight » Thu Feb 21, 2019 12:15 pm
well, this is still part of the reason why I started that thread, so its still linked, I just posted a reply to that thread about the people we do have working on the engine are not the same people who create documentation, the same is true for all other functions of a 'business' which this, in reality, is to some degree. There are staff for some functions (engine development) but we have no staff for the organisation, while I'm currently trying to do some of that it's not enough and I'm far from the best person, but perhaps a little is better than none, at least I have to think that way.

Regarding metrics specifically, I'd be surprised if they don't exist, but combine that with there's nobody to take that data and work/act on it we cycle back to the original problem.
Duion
Posts: 1370
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2015 1:51 am
 
by Duion » Thu Feb 21, 2019 12:51 pm
There are tools and way to estimate traffic even when there is no metric on it and I would assume visitors of this website are around 100 daily, which is not much. Most people are probably from the old community and new visitors are mostly nonexistent.

But of course having a real visitor counter would help more than deducing the visitor count from other factors that are less accurate.

Marketing would mostly consist of placing backlinks to this website on genuine other websites, that is what the spammers are trying with our forum, they place links to have their scam websites rank higher and gain more visitors.
suncaller
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:03 am
by suncaller » Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:27 pm
I agree, metrics would be a useful starting point for figuring out what avenues of approach will yield the best results. However, I think we can perhaps make some judgements based on reasoning and the observable statistics of other major websites in the meantime. For example, github and the google results for game engines:

https://github.com/collections/game-engines
https://github.com/topics/game-engine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_game_engines.

There isn't much we can do with the wiki entry, except update it when there is something spectacular with which to update it, but we can contemplate what happens when someone sees that Torque3D might be a match, and clicks through. What do they see? How does that effect their decision? Is the decision they make in line with reality -- in other words, if they decide to try it, or click away, does the engine actually match up with what the impression that it makes to lead to that decision? Is there a different front we can present that would allow them to better see the reality and make a better choice (in theory, and in my opinion, this would be that there are goods odds that if there is a valid reason to not use UE4 or Unity, T3D is the best available option).
Duion
Posts: 1370
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2015 1:51 am
 
by Duion » Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:25 pm
@ suncaller
Do you think you can convince our nonexistent steering committee to update pages like: https://www.moddb.com/engines/torque-3d that have not been updated for 8 years now.
I mean it is probably too late now for that, since moddb is pretty dead, but it shows the ignorance and nonexistentness of our leadership, that cannot manage to update the description and screenshots of the engine on that website in like 6 years of time. Some things are changed now, but only because I took charge of the account, handed it over to JeffR and told him what to do.

There are maybe 100 websites like that were you could mention the engine or update the entry in some wiki, or write forum posts. Yes there is not much marketing we can do, but the little we could do is not done for the most part. I tried to do it myself a few times, but I was insulted as a shill or by our own community that I should not be in charge of that task or whatever so I stopped doing promotion. I'm also tired of begging others to do things, just because people somehow do not trust me.
Bloodknight
Posts: 226
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2015 8:58 pm
by Bloodknight » Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:36 am
if it were up to me those pages would be deleted entirely, moddb its users and its management are morally corrupt, they post copyrighted materials, they have no curation, they let people shit on and review bomb and vote bomb any software they like without any level or curation at all.

Speaking of non-existent, let's discuss your contribution to torque, one old demo with some slightly modified art and a game which is just a badly reskinned version of the FPS tutorial code, countless times shitting on people in power because you disagreed with them, countless childish temper tantrums because you didn't get your way, dozens of political rants about open source software and insulting anybody who doesn't agree with your tin-foil-hat interpretation of the world.

I may not be king of smiles and fairies, but I don't shit on people because of displaced idealogical zealotry or bigoted ideas, I may be a little sarcastic with people who use C# or Java (ok, very sarcastic to Java users, they earned it, #notsorry), but in the decade and a bit of being part of this community I can only think of one person who has a level of personality so toxic that has reverted to pure trolling.
Duion
Posts: 1370
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2015 1:51 am
 
by Duion » Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:13 am
To make the decision to have it deleted would require an existent committee to make that decision, which we do not have.

My point is, if we have it, either update it, or don't, but don't leave it half updated and in a half derelict state, it does not look good.

But we kind of need it, since most people using the engine have their game on there as well and then they would be left without an engine, which looks even worse. If we delete it, it would require the community to go with it, otherwise we would just be harming ourselves. So deleting it is not an option currently and by the way it was just an example of our nonexistent leadership.
Bloodknight
Posts: 226
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2015 8:58 pm
by Bloodknight » Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:28 am
I'm still trying to figure out why you are hating on the SC, its like you really just want to hate people for the sake of hating instead of pushing the blame where it needs to be.

This is 110% the fuckup of garage games, and the absolute cluster fuck of assholes that the company has been since IAC infected the company with greedy pricks.
The one an only decent thing they've done in the past decade is let the engine go to the public, they even fucked that up I've no idea how! Did I mention they were a cluster fuck?

How about you stop blaming the few people who are trying to get something done, either chip in or just leave nobody is interested in your superiority complex or your non-solutions. I am beginning to wonder why the fuck I even advocated not banning you when many voices in the community figured it would probably be a good idea.
Duion
Posts: 1370
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2015 1:51 am
 
by Duion » Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:32 pm
It does not matter if I hate on the SC or not, since it does not exist anyway, I more hate its nonexistentness than its supposed existentness.
And no it is not the fault of Garagegames, they even spend resources on maintaining and releasing the engine to open source for a while, so they did more than they needed to. If they had not "fucked up" we would not have the engine open source, so it is a good thing within the bad.
JeffR
Steering Committee
Steering Committee
Posts: 932
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2015 9:49 pm
 
by JeffR » Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:41 pm
Spitting vitrol doesn't really help anyone, especially at people actually doing stuff(even if it isn't the stuff you want them to be doing right this second).

On the subject of the moddb page, it actually has gotten a few minor updates, and I've been discussing with Blood what information needs to go on it as we update everything and interlink the documentation, forums, site, etc.

Just saying "update it" doesn't really mean anything if we don't have a solid idea of what information needs to be updated. But yes, it some information is definitely still out of date and will be updated.

Otherwise, I concur that an expanded push on marketing is a good idea. It's something we've discussed in the discord, but getting everything interlinked between the various community elements(as said above, the site, forums, discord, wiki, moddb page, etc) so you can always readily and easily navigate around the engine and community's ecosystem would be an incredibly useful tool to facilitate what marketing is pushed out. That way, it almost doesn't even matter what is linked, because it allows people to be pulled into the community ecosystem.

I dunno that visitor counters really matter, and no sites have used those since the 90's, but I'll see if the site and forums and stuff have any kind of analytics tracking for visits, how many times the sites have been linked to, etc. That's more useful information than a basic tracker that sits in the bottom corner of a webpage and is ignored anyways. As was mentioned, having that sort of info(especially info about linking) would let us better figure out what places provide a good return of interest when linked from.
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