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Re: New default character discussion

Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 9:44 pm
by TorqueFan
I will release this tutorial on my website for those eager to learn. Where they go from there is entirely up to them. I wanted to put it here, and perhaps create a wiki on it, but if it's unwanted I won't do that.

I'm not going to actively try to suppress a huge wealth of resources and information from those people out there who can use it. My goal is to teach people Torque, not the animation and character creation process. That's an entirely different process, and I offered to build up a platform for users to follow that would lead up to that point. Along the lines of:

Now you have an understanding of how this process works you are now prepared to follow Duion's tutorial about modelling a new character from scratch.

You won't allow me to set that groundwork for you, thus I'll just do what I know is right for those people who are thirsting for knowledge. I am offering relevant and useful information for new users to engage with and enjoy while they learn the ropes. This shouldn't be such a heated discussion if we all want people to learn.

Who cares what can or can't be distributed for a tutorial series man? I've already wasted enough of the day with you about this. I hope anyone who is interested will enjoy the new tutorial when I finish it.

Re: New default character discussion

Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 9:54 pm
by Bloodknight
@
User avatar
TorqueFan
I wasn't suggesting you shouldn't, rather suggesting that an eye should be cast towards the resolution of the notion that things could change is all.

As a side note if your tutorials go a long way to explaining the odd complexity of the character system I'm sure they will be invaluable to many.

@
User avatar
Duion
I know how you like to argue some points, but surely adding makehuman models with animations is no different to adding mixamo models with animations, if provided with a system that allows import of animations, regardless of the source, people will take that because of all things game dev creating good quality animations is the single most time consuming and nitpicky area bar none short of being massively OCD and a perfectionist combined, at which point all of the 9 circles of hell are found in game dev.

Re: New default character discussion

Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:05 pm
by TorqueFan
Hey thanks for that @
User avatar
Bloodknight
.

I was beginning to wonder if all of my efforts might be lost here. That's what I'm trying to say, regardless of the source this stuff needs to be put out there in an easy to follow format. Just that understanding of 'how' this works is what's under scrutiny in my eyes. It shouldn't be a scattered all about process trying to piece together example source/script etc. just for some kid to pick up the engine and have some fun. That child might meet his full potential one day and develop the next super AAA Torque game. It's not for us to decide. It's for us to give them that ability and wish them well.

Things will inevitably change, with 4.0 on the horizon, and I've already eluded to that in the tutorial Part I. I plan to start with 3.10.1 and then as 4.0 hits back that up with the relevant changes so old school and new school can sing in harmony.

Re: New default character discussion

Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:05 pm
by Duion
Now you have an understanding of how this process works you are now prepared to follow Duion's tutorial about modelling a new character from scratch.
Your ignorance is beyond imagination, I stated in the initial post that this is NOT about modeling a new character from scratch and I repeated that before and after multiple times. Can you understand that this is ABSOLUTELY NOT about modeling a new character from scratch?
Who cares what can or can't be distributed for a tutorial series man? I've already wasted enough of the day with you about this. I hope anyone who is interested will enjoy the new tutorial when I finish it.
This is also NOT about a tutorial, can you understand that? We need a new default character, not a tutorial, especially not a tutorial that will leave us still having no new default character. And who cares? Redistribution is the SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT POINT of all of this. Without being able to distribute the new default character to others, nobody will have a new default character. So everyone who wants a new character and will end up not having one will care. Also I do care since a Mixamo tutorial is useless for me as well as Mixamo generated content, since I'm making an open source product, so for me it is entirely useless, for others maybe only partly useless.

I'm not saying against the general usefulness of Mixamo, but for this specific area of application it is useless. So can you please stop it?

[Moderator's Note: You have been talked to about antagonistic or insulting language before. Phrases like 'Your ignorance is beyond imagination' when someone was merely attempting to make a tutorial/knowledgebase for other users is completely unnecessary. Consider this an official warning in light of prior discussions of behavior and is marked with a 3 day suspension.]

Re: New default character discussion

Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:09 pm
by TorqueFan
Your ignorance is beyond imagination, I stated in the initial post that this is NOT about modeling a new character from scratch and I repeated that before and after multiple times.
At this point I'm being called ignorant and asking for moderation help. I hadn't been able to locate any means of contacting them as of yet, but I feel like this is casting a shadow on our Community.

I've said I wouldn't post here again but I've attempted to have an intelligible discussion with those who understand the usefulness of tutorial content and it's impossible on this forum. So, yea, I won't post here again.

edited to add quote.

Re: New default character discussion

Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:12 pm
by Duion
@ Duion I know how you like to argue some points, but surely adding makehuman models with animations is no different to adding mixamo models with animations, if provided with a system that allows import of animations, regardless of the source, people will take that because of all things game dev creating good quality animations is the single most time consuming and nitpicky area bar none short of being massively OCD and a perfectionist combined, at which point all of the 9 circles of hell are found in game dev.
It is different. Adding Mixamo is not legally possible, so we will end up having no new default character, but adding Makehuman we will end up having a new default character. The difference is like day and night, having none or having one, the exact polar opposite.

Mixamo = Not possible
Makehuman = Possible

How hard is that to understand? Mixamo also sells ready made game characters including animations, where as Makehuman is a tool to design Humanoids.

No and creating good quality animations is not the most time consuming thing, it is a minor part, but you probably never made animations anyway, so how are you to tell.

Re: New default character discussion

Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:24 pm
by Bloodknight
No and creating good quality animations is not the most time consuming thing, it is a minor part, but you probably never made animations anyway, so how are you to tell.
and you've never made good ones so..... *shrugs* :p

Re: New default character discussion

Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 3:50 am
by Jason Campbell
I really like the idea of a new default character with animations compatible with a particular MakeHuman rig. That would be awesome.

It would be great but I don't know if your going to find many people with animation skills to help.

@ TorqueFan , A tutorial to get a commercial Maximo character into T3D sounds great. The more tutorials the better.

I think Duion is thinking something different. He wants to replace the included Soldier or offer a second one that most Indies can replace with their own, without royalties, that will just work with a certain set of animations. Both great ideas. :)

Re: New default character discussion

Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 5:13 am
by TorqueFan
Yes, you are right @
User avatar
Jason Campbell


I apologize this spiraled out of control the way it did. Duion was right to pursue the goal of a new Soldier model, as that is exactly what I proposed originally. Sometime in between this posting and that original idea, however, I had internally shifted my focus towards something far more meaningful(in my eyes) for newcomers. That wasn't anyone's fault but my own, although I have to admit the type of behavior displayed here just shouldn't occur, and that's on my end as well.

I'm constructing a tutorial, down to where to click in the Editor with pictures, around my ideas and I'd encourage Duion to continue to pursue his goals of getting a new Soldier model out there for the Community. If this is all 'connected' in some way is irrelevant. Just it needs to be something!

Re: New default character discussion

Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:52 pm
by Bloodknight
Two things may happen.
1) Nothing, at which your tutorial is likely to be useful helping people understand how stuff works even if it is via a specific workflow.

2) A new default character is added and the system is evolved to make things easier/simpler, at which point you may need to modify the processes in the tutorial slightly to make it compatible before it fulfils item 1.

Given that the soldier adds even more complexity to the system as a whole (if you include weapons and FP Arms interop) then I still agree that we need something that A) makes the system, on the whole, simpler for those who do not want or need the added complexity of FP arms (so, most non-FPS games and even a bunch of FPS games) B) a tutorial that demystifies the system regardless, because even with simplification I suspect that for new people, it's not immediately simple and easy.

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