[Azaezel]

Strictly speaking for myself (as always) I'm a reflexively foulmouthed, downright abrasive, task oriented person that can and does get lost in the task at hand to the point of forgetting at times that I'm discussing stuff written by people. More so at the ass end of the day. If I can draw the distinction between 'this looks like an idiotic move' and 'you're an idiot' during a live conversation, there's zero excuse for folks forum posting not to take advantage of the extra time to reflect before they hit send.

[suncaller]

I like that there are guidelines and a path for correction explicitly in place.

[Mitovo]

Excellent CoC, Jeff. Pretty much covers all the bases.

In my experience, CoC's are never a problem, and are even welcome by those who naturally stay within their guidelines. They're always a "problem" for those who don't. It's always the latter group who protest having them. Funny how it always holds true, even here. "Those who scream loudest..."

A good example of how a community can be badly affected by negative people and behavior is the official GameMakerStudio community. Every time I've looked there myself, I've seen frequent abrasive attitudes and behavior. I've seen people recommend to stay away from their official forums for the same reason. It's not a good reputation to have, especially when you're "home base" for a product. With the potential T3D has to grow and expand as a viable 3D Game Engine and draw in a larger community, it's wise to get ahead of such eventualities. Makes Moderators' jobs a lot easier, too. The CoC does the heavy lifting and lays out the rules. The Mods just have to apply it as necessary.

If you want a healthy, open community that anyone can join and contribute to, a CoC is an important thing to have.

[Duion]

In my experience, CoC's are never a problem, and are even welcome by those who naturally stay within their guidelines.

NEVER a problem? Did nobody notice the huge scandal when a CoC for Linux was introduced which resulted in Linus Torvalds leaving the project and several other Linux contributors threatening to revoke the licenses for their contributions, which could have resulted in the destruction of the Linux project in total and in the destruction of 90% or whatever of computing infrastructure, since most computers run some kind of Linux.

So just recently a useless CoC almost destroyed most of the computing world, but you don't see a problem in that, if everyone just pretends to be nice to each other.

[Caleb]

NEVER a problem? Did nobody notice the huge scandal when a CoC for Linux was introduced which resulted in Linus Torvalds leaving the project and several other Linux contributors threatening to revoke the licenses for their contributions, which could have resulted in the destruction of the Linux project in total and in the destruction of 90% or whatever of computing infrastructure, since most computers run some kind of Linux.

So just recently a useless CoC almost destroyed most of the computing world, but you don't see a problem in that, if everyone just pretends to be nice to each other.

"Scandal" is a bit of an exaggeration. Linus Torvalds didn't leave the project he took a 1 month vacation. the "computing world" was in 0 danger of being destroyed least of all because of the Linux CoC. Linus Torvalds treated people like dirt for decades and issued an open apology promising to change his behavior within hours of the CoC going into effect. No harm came from it, but some good might.

[Duion]

Linus Torvalds treated people like dirt for decades and issued an open apology promising to change his behavior within hours of the CoC going into effect. No harm came from it, but some good might.

That is not an argument, some people probably are dirt and deserve to be treated like that, who are you to judge that and how is blackmailing people to "be nice" to others going to help anything, if there is any effect of that it will be to create more hate.

PS: You did not even understand my argument, yes he only left the project temporarily, but my main point was not that, but the possible chain reaction of others leaving.

[Caleb]

That is not an argument, some people probably are dirt and deserve to be treated like that, who are you to judge that and how is blackmailing people to "be nice" to others going to help anything, if there is any effect of that it will be to create more hate.

Community members treating each other with disrespect and immaturity is why a code of conduct exists for both Linux and here, how do you not see that as an argument?

PS: You did not even understand my argument, yes he only left the project temporarily, but my main point was not that, but the possible chain reaction of others leaving.

No, you somehow managed to miss your own point. Mitovo said "In my experience, CoC's are never a problem. . .", you disagreed with that quote in your reply and sited an example where there was also no problem with a CoC but made it sound like somehow there was. There wasn't. I pointed that out.

[Mitovo]

In my experience, CoC's are never a problem, and are even welcome by those who naturally stay within their guidelines.

NEVER a problem? Did nobody notice the huge scandal when a CoC for Linux was introduced which resulted in Linus Torvalds leaving the project and several other Linux contributors threatening to revoke the licenses for their contributions, which could have resulted in the destruction of the Linux project in total and in the destruction of 90% or whatever of computing infrastructure, since most computers run some kind of Linux.

So just recently a useless CoC almost destroyed most of the computing world, but you don't see a problem in that, if everyone just pretends to be nice to each other.

1. Perhaps you have to pretend to be nice to others. I don't have that problem. I suspect most people don't have that problem. At minimum, folks can be civil with one another, or just not communicate at all when even civility isn't possible.

2. The Linux situation was a very different deal, with entirely different circumstances and implications. You're conflating two very different things. I suspect you knew that when you wrote it. And anyway, the sky didn't fall. A new CoC didn't bring the Linux world crashing down. Your example kinda defeats itself. Hypotheticals and "what-ifs" don't make compelling arguments.

It's weird that you're even acting like a COC is some bizarre or unprecedented thing. The vast majority of message forums and online communities require you to accept a CoC before you can even sign up. Some require you to click "I Accept" every time you log in. Some keep it pinned at the top of their forums for easy reference when issues arise. Believe it or not, those communities do just fine. It's unusual for a forum *not* have a CoC than *to* have one. These forums, 'til now, have been the exception, not the rule.

Your histrionics and doom-saying are completely unfounded and, really, kinda silly.

So, yes. I 100% stand behind my statement that in my experience, CoC's aren't a problem for people who naturally stay within them without needing to be reminded. They're only a problem for those who can't, or don't want to. For most everyone on these forums, nothing is going to change. They'll continue posting as they always have.

[Duion]

I probably have to remind you once again that this CoC was created, because Jeff accused me of saying something negative, which I did not say. So the main reason we are in this situation is, because I was falsely accused of something and nobody cares to be nice to me, even though I did not behave bad in that situation, which makes everything already very hypocritical, since the main reason we have this CoC did not even exist.
It all becomes even more hypocritical as those rules are basically never applied in cases of real bad behavior like insulting people, but are almost always used as a reason to censor people, which it is all about.

[Mitovo]

I probably have to remind you once again that this CoC was created, because Jeff accused me of saying something negative, which I did not say. So the main reason we are in this situation is, because I was falsely accused of something and nobody cares to be nice to me, even though I did not behave bad in that situation, which makes everything already very hypocritical, since the main reason we have this CoC did not even exist.
It all becomes even more hypocritical as those rules are basically never applied in cases of real bad behavior like insulting people, but are almost always used as a reason to censor people, which it is all about.

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks."